In Episode 16 of Lawyerpreneur, we talk with M.C. Sungaila about developing your business and your reputation. We also explore the topic of operating out of an abundance mindset, rather than a place of fear and scarcity. Our last topic is how writing books and being a client has helped M.C. be a more empathetic lawyer.
You can listen here or on your favorite podcast apps: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeart Radio, TuneIn, and RSS.
Today’s show is sponsored by ALPS, the nation’s largest direct writer of lawyers’ malpractice insurance. Right now you can get 25% off one CLE seminar from ALPS. Go to alpsinsurance.com/cle and use promo code LAWYERPRENEUR upon check-out.
Developing Your Business and Your Reputation with M.C. Sungaila
Jeremy Richter: My guest today is M.C. Sungaila, who is a recipient of the Ellis Island Medal of Honor for her humanitarian and pro bono work. She is an accomplished appellate litigator and as the Silver Medal winner of the independent Publisher’s Book Awards for her book, Mother’s Thoughts for the Day. M.C., welcome to the show.
M.C. Sungaila: Thank you so much, Jeremy, for having me.
Jeremy Richter: I wanted to start with talking about business development, because I saw that in one of your prior interviews that you’ve done, you said you spent as much as 45% of your time working on marketing and branding for you and your firm. So when I was doing my research on you, I saw that you’re involved in a lot of organizations at the local, state, and national levels. And I know that I was, as a young lawyer, and that lots of young lawyers are told they need to join industry organizations to make connections and build your networks. So many of us do join, but then don’t get involved and don’t really derive any real benefit from it. So I wanted to ask you whether all of the engagements in the organizations on your end has helped build your business and how that’s affected your practice.
M.C. Sungaila: I have been in leadership positions everywhere from international associations (International Association of Defense Counsel to the ABA) to local bars (the Orange County Bar Association). I’m on the board of directors, currently at women lawyers associations. I also serve on a lot of community boards — art, sports, things like that. Usually one or two of those boards. I currently chair the RAND Institute for Civil Justice Board, and also serve on the Executive Committee for our Symphony here, the Pacific Symphony.
So that’s a broad array of things on top of, you know, actually practicing and writing briefs and arguing cases. But I really got involved in that because I like to roll up my sleeves and I like to make a difference and I just sort of naturally gravitate towards leadership positions. If I’m going to do something that I’m not really just a joiner. I’m going to become involved, because I want to contribute in some way to the organization, sort of find my way toward doing that. And I enjoy meeting people from very different backgrounds and perspectives. A lot of the bar associations, I would not have met criminal defense lawyers or prosecutors, or a whole range of people that hadn’t been involved in the bar associations that I’ve been involved in.
Also, I think for appellate lawyers, we are specialists. We’re like neurosurgeons. So we tend not to get our work from people just, you know, coming in off the street as it were. We’re not general practitioners. A lot of our work and our relationships are important to have with other lawyers. Other lawyers are my clients, as well as corporations and individuals. So it’s important to have that reach and to have a lot of people know you. I also think that As an appellate lawyer, it’s become even more important to have connections both at the lawyer level, the trial lawyer level, and the client level. It used to be that it was almost exclusively the choice of the trial lawyer about who the appellate lawyer was on a case because the client didn’t know any better, and you were like this person, great. But now the clients — the corporate clients and even individuals — are getting more sophisticated, and they know that they want to be involved in that decision as well.
So when it comes time to hire someone, an appellate lawyer, especially for a really significant case, there are many decision makers. There’s the in-house counsel, there’s the CEO, or the entrepreneur, or the individual, if it’s a, you know, probate or family law case. And then there’s the original lawyer, the trial lawyer. And the key now is to be at the intersection of all of those choices, you want to be the top choice of all of those people. So as time has gone on, it’s become more important for my practice to have that really deep and wide range of people who know you, so you if you get recommended, someone says, “Oh yeah, I know M.C.. She’s really great,” or “I’ve seen the work that she’s done.” So I guess that’s a long, long way of saying it works definitely for my practice, and it’s something that I would do anyway. But if you’re going to map out an intentional path, it also makes a lot of sense.
Jeremy Richter: Okay, so your experience sounds like mine. Whenever I’ve gotten more involved in these organizations, I have definitely seen just an uptick in the number of people that I meet, and even if it doesn’t directly result in any business immediately, it’s another way of staying top of mind with people and just having a connection that down the road, maybe you can help each other out. Or maybe it’s just somebody else that you know.
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, I mean, it’s a very long term game, I think, which is why it’s good to advise the newer attorneys to become involved sooner rather than later, because it takes time to become involved and contribute to an organization and to know people well enough. And then you might as well start that early rather than later because it doesn’t really bear its full fruit for several years. And sometimes, as you said, it could be even decades. I mean, there are some things I’ve done for people I’ve worked with 10 years ago, and lo and behold, you know, they call me to write a book or they call me to refer a case to me. And it’s maybe someone I haven’t seen or talk to you in quite some time, but that you know, they still remember me from whatever interaction we had in connection with the bar or community activities. So I think that even though people may or may not be able to see your skill of what exactly you do in that setting, they see your judgment and the quality of the other work that you do and just other aspects of your character that make them feel comfortable in trusting you.
I think for appellate lawyers, we also have the role of people actually seeing our work. I have chaired a number of amicus brief committees and written briefs for various bar associations. And, you know, that’s a direct opportunity for people to see your work in a case that they understand and then that gives another layer of familiarity. If someone wants to refer something to you, they say, “Well, not only do I know this person, but I’ve actually seen their writing and it’s quite good.”
Jeremy Richter: I hadn’t thought about that aspect of it. Everything you do is a public record. Whereas I’m a trial lawyer, and they might see the result of something, if they’re really looking for it, but there’s no real tangible evidence for them to go by and look at my work product.
M.C. Sungaila: Right, which is always possible for someone to do with our publicly filed briefs. The difference is when they really understand the context in which that brief was written as well. And that’s what doing the amicus briefs does, people understand the importance of that case. Or if they’re on the board, they will have reviewed the brief and made a decision that they approve it and want to file it. And that’s very different than just seeing a brief that you go well, it looks well written, but they also understand the context in the subject matter. And I’ve had some, some boards that have reviewed a brief or made suggestions, not appellate lawyers on the board, very good lawyers. But they’ll say, “Well, I think the briefs should just be this two or three pages that say a few things.” And then I say, “Okay, well just let me do my magic and I will produce something and you can take a look at it.” And they go, “Oh, well, that’s not what we had in mind at all, but it’s is really good. And it should have been what I had in mind.” So it’s also another very tangible way for people to realize the value that you bring.
Because I think a lot of lawyers — everybody that went to law school did moot court. So everybody kind of in the back of their mind thinks if they had to in a pinch, could write their own appellate brief and do their own appellate argument. And maybe only for those super special cases should they need to call you in. But when they see that, they say, well, maybe more than just the super special case. We should work together a little bit different.
The other thing for me, I think, from this kind of stuff is that I think you can go into things with a particular interest or a goal in mind. But you get things out of this participation that you might not have foreseen. So one of those really the most notable ones was since we’re speaking of amicus briefs, this my second term serving on the ABA Standing Committee for Amicus Briefs. And that is a very unique committee. There are six members, most of them are very well known, experienced US Supreme Court lawyers and litigators. And we essentially serve as the extension of the General Counsel’s Office. So we’re not drafting the briefs ourselves. But we’re in a client role. We’re making sure that it fits with what the ABA procedures are, what the policy of the ABA is, and also the quality. So that is a unique opportunity to serve in a client role. And to both interface with the General Counsel’s office and understand what their needs are, but also have interactions as a client with the brief writers, who are donating their time to this. So they are not being paid, but they believe it’s important to assist the ABA in important cases.
But that was very eye opening, the whole relationship with different people how client-sensitive they were, how client responsive they were, whether it was their way or the highway, or whether they really listened to us. And honestly without us saying thumbs up, this brief was not going to get filed. That’s just the way it works. So it was very interesting to have that relationship. And to understand that in a much more of visceral way than when you’re working outside the client role. So that I never would have guessed would have been something I would have gotten from the from the Standing Committee, knowing very good lawyers and getting to work with them working on interesting cases for the ABA. Learning some skills, absolutely. But I didn’t foresee that. So I think there’s a lot of benefits you don’t even know or foresee from being involved.
Jeremy Richter: Well, let me ask you this. Being in that client role, has it shaped or affected your understanding of what clients need from you and allowed you to implement any changes in your own practice?
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, I think I’m more careful about listening to the clients concerns even if they are business concerns. And then translating that to the legal realm and to the brief, sort of the bridge between those two things. Legally, I’m in this court, what is the protocol and how do we do things. As opposed to, okay, I understand this broader concern that you have — how can we include that in the brief in a way that will be appear natural to the court and will enhance our legal arguments instead of seeming to go off on some point that may not be directly legally relevant, but is an important thing to consider. That we’re doing work in a much larger context, and that we can improve our arguments and our submissions by really listening to business concerns and policy concerns and other things that the clients might bring to us. So think I just kind of naturally work towards that a lot. I work to incorporate that a lot more.
Jeremy Richter: Going back to business development for a minute. Young lawyers know that to transition to being a partner in their firm, they need to develop a book of business, establish your own clients. But many firms are not very good at facilitating that and developing that aspect of their associates’ growth. I saw that you divide your business development and marketing time into three areas, which are: reputation development, relationship development, and new matter development. And we’ve talked just generally about some of those already. But I want to ask you some more specific questions. So as for relationship development, which you talked about in the context of leading appellate treatises and writing articles, guest blogging, teaching at law schools and on panels. How do you go about making the opportunities to do those things?
M.C. Sungaila: Well, some of those flow the bar association and community work. People who are involved in things are involved in other things and they’re looking for people they trust to help them out or participate in those things. Other people are very conscious of reciprocity and helping each other out. So I think that the opportunities come from that the bar associations have a lot of platforms. The ABA publishes books as well. I have a couple of books in the works for them. Editing in my role from the ABA appellate practice committee chair position. And over time, I have a lot of connections with different editors at different papers and online sources as well, that I’ve reached out to you if I have a particular article or something I would I think it’s timely to write. I’ll pitch it to them directly, also through our marketing department, but I have a good sense of what some of those places would like. And then speaking on panels, or now by Zoom or webinar.
Another thing, I would say significant pro bono cases, which I’ve been doing since before I became a full-time appellate lawyer. So I did my first pro bono case in the U.S. Supreme Court in 1996. And I’ve been doing at least two pro bono cases a year since then every year. So there’s a lot of body of work from that. And as a young lawyer, it gave me a profile. There’s not many people in their 20s, who have written their first appellate briefs in the U.S. Supreme Court. So that was something that was differentiating. And it was a really interesting case. And none of the parties could talk about it. So I ended up being sort of the spokesperson for the position of my side of the case. And so I was in a lot of news articles and kind of learned how to deal with journalists on the fly in that particular case.
So I think there’s a lot to be said from all of these different types of opportunities. Especially when you’re starting out, I think it’s important to do them and to take them. As you do more, you can be more selective. You say, “Well, I’m going to give that opportunity to somebody else because it isn’t exactly what — I’ve done enough of those already,” which is what I do with my team. I make sure I have opportunities for them to become involved in bar association activities, help them get appointed to certain leadership roles. And then if something comes to me, commenting to a journalist or an opportunity to publish a newsletter article or something like that, I will suggest that they might want to take a look at that and do that, is just a stepping stone for them to start getting their name out there independently.
My sense of the reputational development is that if you have a particularly a niche practice, you want the situation to be that no matter where somebody turns, they can’t escape you, right? If I’m looking for appellate or I’m looking for something else, “Gosh darn it, that MC is popping up once again.” So you know, you just can’t escape me. There I am. And it’s also helpful because I have moved firms during my career, so that I’m not totally identified with a firm. I’m identified on my own as my own brand. And I think that’s true for all of us. Although I don’t think we think of it that way. We are our own brand, within a platform of a larger brand if we are at a large firm. And while you definitely want to support the larger brand, you also have to nurture your own, not just for the viability and mobility point I mentioned, but people are hiring, yes, a firm, but they’re also hiring you. And I think in that company If you think about getting your own name out within that context as your own brand, then you’re also able to be more authentic, to be yourself in a way that will attract clients who want that.
Jeremy Richter: Yeah, and I’ll say that a lot of the corporate clients that we do work with or that I do work with, they tell their lawyers, “Look, we are hiring an individual, we’re not hiring a firm. So we don’t want you handing out our cases to just anybody in your firm. We’re hiring you because we want you to do our work.” And that only comes, those relationships only come with having built a reputation and not just being subsumed within the larger reputation of your firm, but like you said, of having your own identity that travels with you.
M.C. Sungaila: Right. And I think that’s true for everyone. That’s really kind of how it goes. I mean, it’s just like now, just like what you’re doing with this podcast. Everyone is their own media company. Everyone is their own publisher. That is true, given where we are now, given the internet, and the abilities to do this. You could not have done this five, six years ago. You’d have to go to some other platform which would allow you to have the reach, but now you’re able to do your own and expand your reach, and also help the firm by doing that.
Jeremy Richter: Right. And that was — so I started my law blog in 2016. I was four years out. I was in that period where I knew I needed to be doing my own business development, but I didn’t have an identity as a lawyer that allowed people to know or recognize me, because most of my work was for other people. Insurance defense, like a lot of other types of lawyering, is a very crowded space. It’s very competitive, and I needed to do something different to make myself findable. So that’s when I started my blog. And I started writing about things that were relevant to changes in law in Alabama specifically, and then more broadly to practice and case management and client management, that was particularly geared for younger lawyers. That writing and things that evolved out of it, like speaking opportunities, all helped me create an identity. That wasn’t just an end unto itself, but it enabled me to have a bigger platform so that I could establish relationships with other lawyers. And even what has turned into relationships with clients and potential clients, that otherwise I wouldn’t have had any means to meet those people. Or even after having met them, for them to know before they ever hired me what I’m about and be able to look me up and find out what I have to say in my voice and if the things that are important to me or congruent with what’s important to them.
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, exactly. And that can be challenging when you’re new because you say, “Well, I don’t have decades of experience that I can offer you, but I do have other things that are unique to me.” So it’s a way to stand out and focus on your particular strengths at that point in time and give you time to get more of the substantive experience too. And then that’s perfect, because people will have felt comfortable and known you in another setting. And then in a couple of years, if they have some matter, they might want to trust you with it. So that’s really great. I’ve seen that with other young, or newer lawyers as well, that they’ll start their own podcast or they’ll do something that will allow them to interact with people they otherwise wouldn’t be able to or have the platform to do.
Jeremy Richter: Yeah, and it’s not without hiccups. We have had — I’ve had my share along the way. But you learn and learn how, what not to do, and hopefully, you know, don’t do it again.
M.C. Sungaila: Well, I think that’s an important thing, because no matter what you’re doing in business development, the one thing that remains true is that you have to adapt. You have to remain nimble. You have to adjust. Because even if the format that you’re doing you think, “Oh, this is perfect, this is going to be perfect. This is going to be the thing that really, you know, changes the landscape.” And it’s a total dud. You’re like, “Wow, that did not work.” And you have to be humble enough to say, it sounded good on paper. And go, “Okay, I’m just going to pick myself back up and try a different direction. I was wrong about that.” Or maybe I won’t see that I was right for a small amount of people five years from now, but it certainly wasn’t the blockbuster thing I was anticipating. Yeah, so that’s true with all of this though. I mean, and I would say with business development for newer lawyers, you just have to accept it’s that way for literally everybody. Even people who’ve been doing it for 25 or 30 years. You could become comfortable and just stick with your normal thing that’s always worked for you. But I think that people who really excel are interested in continuing to learn and grow. And so it just continues to be that way. I hate to tell you it’s going to keep being that way. It’s going to be different things that did not work out.
Jeremy Richter: Well, that kind of reminds me of parenting or what people tell me about parenting. I’ve got a five year old and a two year old, and the things that are the problems now, it’s just going to be different problems. It’s not that problems are going to go away. Great, guys. Thank you.
M.C. Sungaila: I think you grow and you learn things or sometimes — hopefully you don’t learn the same lesson over and over because that means you’re not really learning it. But yes, failing — just flat out failing in a lot of things — and picking yourself up and trying a different direction, that is definitely the case, especially with business development. And like I said, there can be changes that happen in how decisions are made during your career too. And you have to be aware of those and adjust to them. So as I mentioned, in the appellate realm, when I started out, it really was the trial lawyers, who give you recommendations, and then somewhere along the line that really became much broader, where you really had direct client — and just so many other people in that decision making process. And if you weren’t conscious of that, you wouldn’t adjust. You just have to adjust your playbook because you’re playing a different game.
Jeremy Richter: Well, piggybacking off of what you said a couple minutes ago about being adaptable and malleable. We’re obviously an uncharted territory. We’re recording this on June 17. So for the last three months, most of us have been in some form of lockdown and whatever phase you happen to be in, how have you gone about it, or have you done anything particular or different about staying top of mind with clients and referral sources and just making sure that whatever they have come along that they’re still thinking of you, even though you might be less visible than previously?
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, it’s interesting. So I don’t know that I’ve been less visible compared to others. I understand what you’re saying. You’re not having lunch with people, and you’re not speaking in person at panels. You’re not traveling to conferences. That’s true. That’s not happening, but a lot of conferences and panels went online. And I was very involved with our local bar association’s COVID task force where we were putting on programs two times a week, both to help our members and direct lawyer members and in-house council members too. So I spoke quite a bit on webinars and invited some of my former clients and current clients to speak with me when that was possible.
I also found that during COVID lockdown, what really resonated with everyone was being just authentic and warm and personal. So the bells and whistles and all the things that we normally do for speaking and getting out there with people, honestly, if you just texted someone or gave them a call and asked how they were doing, or for me, I thought about people who would be adversely impacted and how I or my firm could help them. And this would be — I mean, appellate lawyers are not normally known as lawyers who cross-sell, right? People come to us at the very end of either a very good or very bad experience. And we’re the caboose, usually. But in this setting, it actually gave me an opportunity to talk with people and reach out to them and ask what kind of things were going on with them. Or even, maybe guess what might be going on for them and how we could possibly help them. Whether that was getting loans or helping them with employment advice, or other things. I could connect them to people who could help, or there was a free webinar from our bar association that I could send to them. So it was actually much closer, I would say much more personal relationship with some clients than I was able to have before. So in some cases, it brought me closer, and also gave me an opportunity to help them out in other ways that I hadn’t done before.
Jeremy Richter: I’ll say that I have a lot of interaction with insurance adjusters who are handling the claims that I’m working on that they’ve sent. In most of those–
M.C. Sungaila: Oh, my gosh, you must be very busy, and so are they!
Jeremy Richter: Yes. And, you know, historically, it’s just mostly very business relationships, because some of them we may have never had a claim together. Or we’ve had a few. And others, we’ve worked with each other for years and years. But I’ve had more personal conversations with folks over the phone just about like — because simultaneously, you’re so sick of talking about the Coronavirus and what’s going on, but also there’s nothing else to talk about. So we’ve just had more conversations about how it’s going working at home and kids and families and what everything is looking like, than I’ve ever had with people before. So what you said about being personable and just being available to have a conversation — right now, there are folks that if they’re not married and don’t have kids, their phone conversations during business hours, may be the only conversations that they are simply having and so they just want to talk to somebody. And being available for that is huge.
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, yeah. And my dog has made an appearance on some of our calls. So I know there’s that. She doesn’t come up very often, usually during client calls. But I think that I think that’s right. And I have a unique perspective on the whole Coronavirus thing because I represented one of our local cities in the very first COVID lawsuit in the country, to enjoin the federal and state government from plopping a number of diamond princess COVID-positive patients into our county where at the time we had absolutely no COVID. So that was back in February. So I studied every research there was. And as it evolved, I was tracking it during this TRO hearing. So I kind of had a sense of these things much earlier than most. And since then, I’ve been involved with getting our businesses back to work committees and things like that. Because of that knowledge on the kind of science expert side as well as the question of government power and the various roles, I really kind of got a jumpstart on some of those issues.
Jeremy Richter: Similarly, pretty early on, we had a client who called us and said, “Hey, what’s going to happen with all of these business interruption claims? And is there coverage for that?” We kind of collectively looked at each other, like, “We’ll have to get back to you.” And so 7000 words later and dozens of hours of research, we had kind of an answer. And that’s been a huge in our side of the industry of insurance coverage and that sort of thing. That’s been a huge issue and will continue to be for years. There are billions of dollars at stake.
M.C. Sungaila: The other thing I would say in terms of being relevant or helpful to clients is that I think that one of my roles as an appellate lawyer is to stay ahead of the curve and to look around the corner at what is coming for clients and where the claims are, where the cases are coming from. Where their risks might be and what kind of claims they might be seeing. So one of the other things that I did during the lockdown was — do that very early and you can be one of the very first lawyers who was writing about what kind of claims can we expect in all areas of civil law? And where could they be brought, including globally. So thinking about where you might find yourself in court, as well as what types of claims from consumer class actions to the business interruption, insurance questions to a whole range of things employment related. And we wrote and spoke on those very early well before the tide had kind of turned to that kind of thinking. And that’s part of the branding too. I’m much more of strategic thinker. And I’d like to look further ahead at future risks. So that’s what we did.
Jeremy Richter: I think there’s so much value in that. Not just because it keeps clients informed., but at a more basic level, it tells clients, even when I’m not billing you for my time, I’m thinking about you and what’s in your best interest. And how can you put yourself in a better position to deal with these things that are coming down the road. And it builds the relationship. It builds trust equity, and it just in some ways — well, now I’m drawing a blank on the word that I want to use — but it obligates them in a way to you, not in a sinister way, but that they know that you’re thinking about them and they want to reciprocate that by continuing to send you work.
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, I’m sure there’s some psychology to that too.
Jeremy Richter: Alright, so changing gears. I saw in an intro interview that you did a couple years ago that you when you were asked about your favorite tip for being a rainmaker, you said, start from a mindset of generosity. And I really love that answer. It’s something that I wrote about fairly extensively in my new book that came out earlier this year, Level Up Your Law Practice, about having a generosity mindset as compared to a scarcity mindset. So just for the context in the conversation, can you describe what you mean by having a generosity mindset?
M.C. Sungaila: Sure, so I think we live, particularly in a time where our mental attitude is very important. I mean, we’ve heard about it in you know, a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset in terms of whether you want to be growing or you think you are, whether you think you can’t have any impact on what happens to you. So in this context, I’m thinking of exactly what you mentioned, which is you come from a point of scarcity or a point of generosity, which is that there’s more than enough to go around. And you are — therefore, there’s sort of less fear involved. You’re not coming from a place of fear or scarcity. Or like some of the events I go to where people are passing out their card immediately and only talking to the people whose name badge indicates they have a title that can help. And if you don’t, they just look right past you. I mean, I definitely remember that as a newer lawyer being like, no one will talk to me because I don’t have some big title. And I thought, well, that is just so rude.
And it certainly isn’t going to get you — It’s not going to help you to have that approach, because nobody wants to feel used. Nobody wants to feel like just a tool for you to get somewhere. Nobody enjoys that. But that comes from a little bit of fear too. So I think that that’s the difference of are you willing to be generous first? Purely because you are generous, not because you read somewhere that if I’m generous first, I’m going to get something from it. That also doesn’t work. So it really has to be that you want to help other people or you see opportunities. I think for me naturally, I just always think that way. I always think, “Hey, this person’s looking to do this. This would be helpful for them.” And I try to connect them up with that opportunity. That’s just kind of how I work as a person. So it’s actually not very difficult for me to do that because that’s just how I am and I think people feel that they know whether you’re genuine about that or not.
Jeremy Richter: I agree, and I do think a lot of people in our industry particularly — maybe it’s all service firm type industries that where a client hires me, that means they are not hiring you — that it can be very difficult for people to have this mindset of being generous and the idea of there’s always more where that came from. And they operate from a place of fear rather than a place of generosity.
Here’s an example, in my own experience. One of the earliest articles that I wrote was for our Alabama Defense Lawyers magazine. And it was about it’s really technically not a very interesting article, but it’s about keeping drug screen results out of trials or whether they’re going to come in for post-accident drug tests involving truck drivers. So super technical, but a lot of admissibility stuff. And one lawyer said to me, “Aren’t you worried that you’re going to help out your competition? And give them a leg up here by sharing all this information?” And I just, like you said, I can’t operate that way. I mean, I guess I could, but I can’t allow myself to because it’s to my detriment to think that way.
M.C. Sungaila: It seems foreign to me. I mean, I see that. I see when people think that way. And I’ve heard the same kind of things from people. I’ve even been at meetings. I mean, I get this in a different way, which is, I’ll be at a sort of all panel counsel meeting. And I’m one of a couple of appellate lawyers. Everybody else is a trial lawyer. Literally, no one in that room is my competition. We team up, right, we’re a team. So I will go bouncing around saying hi to different people on different tables and this and that. And they look at me like I have two heads, and they don’t go and talk to anyone else because they’re like, well, competition.
And I think, no, you have to work with each other. And sometimes you have to pass cases from one to the other. You might as well have a cordial relationship about it. And it’s just strange. I’ve had that and also the same thing with appellate lawyer associations or things like that. I am involved in some of those. And we can help each other too by referring cases to each other if we have a conflict. Or we can provide writing opportunities to each other or speaking opportunities. Sometimes I have cases where I’ll need an amicus brief and the amicus brief organization needs a good appellate lawyer. And I can connect them up with someone who I know will do a good job for them.
So even in that setting where we are doing the same kind of work, I don’t see it as you know, you can’t give away the secrets to anyone here. I think after a while you realize it isn’t really — there’s an art to everything, there’s a judgment to everything. And even if you gave people all of the tools to put together , to make this brief, it would never be the same as if you did it. So if you’re writing an article about case law, or what have you, you are just giving the nuts and bolts to people. How you put that together in the case, how you negotiate, how you balance the client’s needs — that’s just something that you provide yourself that no one’s going to get from the article.
Jeremy Richter: Alright, switching tracks. You’ve done a lot of legal writing, you mentioned that you’ve got a couple of things in the works with the ABA. But you’ve also written a couple books that are nonfiction and not law related. Mother’s Thoughts for the Day came out in 2019. You released a sequel to that earlier this year, More Mother’s Thoughts for the Day. Why was it important for you to write these books? Because it’s not like you don’t have anything else going on, it sounds like.
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, that’s true. Well, I can say I have two accomplishments during the pandemic for sure. One is that the first book won the IPPY independent publishing award for its gift book category. And the second is that the second book was published as well. So I can say if you’re looking for tangible results from the pandemic, I have a medal and I have a book.
Jeremy Richter: You may get close to the top of the list with that. That’s pretty impressive.
M.C. Sungaila: So the book is really a collection of notes that my mom has sent me throughout my legal career and in law school as well. But every day, she would send me a letter with the stationery that she made up for it that said “Mother’s Thoughts for the Day” across the top. And then she would have some kind of quote or some encouraging words, and they would come to my office. So as a new lawyer, I would have this pile of mail and depositions and various things coming in. And this one very nice handwritten note from my mom. So she did that literally every day. And since then, she sends me text messages every day too, but it’s really motivational mindset kind of stuff and very nice quotes.
And I had in mind that maybe there was something here from these writings, maybe there was something positive to contribute to the world from this. My mom made a positive difference for her daughter. And maybe there were other young folks, young women in particular, who could benefit from this. And I honestly produced that first book on a total leap of faith. I had a feeling that we needed positive things in the world. There’s been a lot of crazy things going on. And I thought positive is good. And this was very positive for me. Maybe it’ll be positive for someone else, and sort of reinforces family and family relationships as well.
And I have always been a writer. That’s why I became a lawyer. And so I’ve always liked quick books and gift books like really kind of fun gift books. So I thought maybe I could put these into this and I could publish it. And I knew because it was my mom’s, I didn’t want to do a normal traditional publisher because I didn’t want to lose the rights to any of those, any of her manuscripts. So I said, “Okay, I have to self-publish it, and I don’t know gosh darn thing about how to design a book about any of this and how to do manuscripts. But I don’t know how to design this, and it certainly requires other skills.” So I started looking around on Amazon for books that looked like what I wanted to do. And I found one that had the kind of feel that I wanted, and I reached out to the publishing companies or independent publishing company that helps you put together things for imprints. And so they did the design and all of this stuff, and I knew it was the right place — it’s called Girl Friday Publishing — I knew was the right place, because when I called them, they said, “Oh, we think we understand what you have in mind. We did a book like this.” And they sent me the book that I’d seen on Amazon. I was like. “Yes! that’s it! That’s what I want.”
So of course, it came out totally different. But it was definitely the vibe about that book. And we were on the same wavelength. So, yep, so that’s how it happened. I just I took a leap of faith that there was something positive in this that could benefit the world. I had no idea what that would be, how it would turn out. Or really why I was doing this other than at the very least, I thought my mother will be happy. So I thought, okay, at least there will be one person I make happy from doing this. And my mother will be happy, even though I had to convince her to do it, because she didn’t think that her advice was very good, which is kind of funny. So yeah, so it was a total leap of faith. And other than the book itself, that choice to take a leap of faith to do something that I felt called to do, but had no rational reason why has very much changed my approach to a lot of things. Just the act of doing that has caused me to be more open to other things. And so that in itself has created a difference in how I practice law and just how I go about in the world. So there’s a positive thing from doing that.
And then when I won an award, I thought, Oh, good, you know, it’s great. Other people think it’s actually pretty good too. And then I got a lot of feedback on it to a lot of people who said, “Oh, I read a couple pages of this to my children at night or they read a couple pages before they go to school in the morning. And I want to do something like this for my for my kids.” Although that’s a lot of sustained work, every day sending something, but they use the book to kind of further their connections in their family as well. And that’s really nice to hear.
Jeremy Richter: Yeah, that’s really great feedback and encouraging, I’m sure. So my first book was through the ABA. And then my after that my last two have been self published. And I talked in Episode 8 of this podcast about why I did that. And part of it was because I wanted to have more control over everything, which probably says a lot about me. And also, I wanted that challenge and that experience of doing it for myself. And after I did it the first time, I just really enjoyed doing all the legwork and the control and the experience of independent publishing and going through all that. Did you enjoy and have you enjoyed that process as well?
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah, I mean, I’ve helped along from Girl Friday. So there’s a lot of that that I don’t have to deal with directly. And so I have, I’m able to work with experts on book publishing and marketing to get to get the book through the process. But I think it’s another example of a situation where I’ve learned by doing it, what it feels like to be kind of a business owner in that way and a creator of a product and how you feel about that.
And I have a lawyer for my copyright and my trademarks. And noticing what I tell and don’t tell my lawyer because I don’t think they’re relevant. And she goes, “Well, that’s really relevant.” Then I’m like, “Oh, well, I wasn’t thinking about it that way.” And I’m a lawyer. So that’s given me a lot more empathy for clients because sometimes you say, “Well, why didn’t you tell me that very important fact?” which would have been very obvious to you was an important fact for my legal argument. And I had one of those moments the other day with her and I said, “Oh my gosh, I’m doing that. I’m being client.” And she said, “Yes.”
Jeremy Richter: That’s funny. It just didn’t occur to you just like it didn’t occur to them to tell you.
M.C. Sungaila: Yeah. And I said, Why did that happen? I’m like, because I was thinking of some other business aspect of it. I wasn’t looking at it through the lens of the law, even though you’re a lawyer, so I thought, well, you know, geez, that’s what happens to clients too.
Jeremy Richter: Well, if people want to find your books, they want to find you, where can they do that?
M.C. Sungaila: Sure. So the books actually have their own website, mothersthoughtsfortheday.com. And the website itself also won a publishing like a marketing award in all categories, so won a marketing word in the IPPYs as well. And the books are on everything from Amazon to Target to Walmart, Barnes and Noble and bookshop, which is the independent bookseller as well. And I also use the books as a way to give back. So I’ve donated a certain amount of the profits to both Pacific Symphony and their arts education programs for children. And also to Caterina’s Club, which is a charity that feeds motel kids and their families through the Boys and Girls Clubs, and also gets them out of motels and into apartments and homes. And they were very busy during the pandemic, feeding lots of people in lots more families.
Jeremy Richter: Yeah. Well, that’s really great of you to be able to do that. I think that’s really admirable. And I thank you for coming on the show. I’ve really enjoyed it. It’s been a great conversation.
M.C. Sungaila: Thank you so much, Jeremy. I really appreciate it. And it’s been fun. If people want to find me in my lawyer capacity as well, I’m an appellate partner at Haynes Boone and can be contacted through the website.
